Chase Pendleton and Scott Varner—two of the best win-loss program managers at Clozd—are going to give you a crash course on how to conduct a top-notch win-loss interview that will reveal to you some of your greatest weaknesses as a company, and often some of your greatest strengths.
A few months ago—after binge watching an entire season of the Great British Baking Show, I decided to try my hand at baking my favorite cookie. The raspberry rose macaron from the Jolly Holiday bakery at Disneyland. I assumed it would be easy. After all, baking is just combining a bunch of ingredients in a bowl, then throwing it all in the oven, and voila, you have something delicious… right? Oooh how wrong I was. I tried baking these cookies 3 different times, and each time something went horribly wrong. I was experiencing the Dunning Kreuger.
In case you need a quick refresher, the Dunning-Kruger effect is what happens when you completely overestimate your own competence while underestimating the difficulty of a task.
When most leaders hear about win-loss analysis, they make the same mistake I made with those raspberry rose macarons. They think, “All we need to do is call a few customers, have some conversations, and voila—we’ve got ourselves some valuable win-loss insights that can drive our strategy and help us generate more revenue. But if you’ve tuned into the past 3 episodes of this show, you know there’s a lot that needs to happen before you ever get on a call with a buyer if you want to build out a program that continuously impacts your business strategy, increases win rates, and drives more revenue.
In today’s episode, the rubber hits the road. Chase Pendleton and Scott Varner—two of our best win-loss program managers here at Clozd—are going to give you a crash course on how to conduct a top-notch win-loss interview that will reveal to you some of your greatest weaknesses as a company, and often some of your greatest strengths.
Buckle up and grab a notebook; this is going to be a great episode.
Podcast of WL101 Lesson 4
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[00:00:00] A few months ago, after binge watching an entire season of the Great British Baking Show, I decided to try my hand at baking my favorite cookie, the Raspberry Rose macaron from the Jolly Holiday Bakery at Disneyland. Now, I assumed it would be easy.
[00:00:13] After all, baking is just combining a bunch of ingredients into a bowl, then throwing it in the oven, and voila, you have something delicious, right? Oh, how wrong I was.
[00:00:24] I tried baking these cookies three different times, and each time something went horribly wrong.
[00:00:30] I was experiencing the Dunning Krueger effect. Now, in case you need a quick refresher, the Dunning Kruegger effect is what happens when you completely overestimate your own competence while underestimating the difficulty of a specific task. Probably a task that you don't have a lot of experience with.
[00:00:45] most leaders hear about win loss analysis, they make the exact same mistake I made with those raspberry rose macarons. They think. All we need to do is just call up a few customers, have some conversations, and voila, we've got ourselves some [00:01:00] valuable win loss insights that can drive our strategy and help us generate more revenue.
[00:01:04] But if you've tuned into the past three episodes of this show, you know that there's a lot that needs to happen before you ever even get on a call with a buyer. If you want to build out a win loss program that continuously impacts your business strategy, increases your win rate and drives more revenue.
[00:01:20] In today's episode, the rubber finally hits the road. Chase Pendleton and Scott Varner. Two of our best win loss program managers here at Closed are going to give you a crash course on how to conduct a top-notch win-loss interview that will reveal to you some of your greatest weaknesses as a company and often some of your greatest strengths as well.
[00:01:38] Buckle up, grab a notebook. This is gonna be an awesome episode.
[00:01:42] Nate Bagley: [00:02:00] Welcome to Win Loss 1 0 1. This is the fourth week of this six week series, and we're so glad that you're here joining us. If this is your first time joining us on Win Loss 1 0 1, I want to invite you to go to win loss one oh one.com.
[00:02:29] If you go to that, that website, you'll be able to catch the previous three lessons where we, it's kind of built up to today's lesson and you'll get all the homework assignments and bonus material there. And so, um, definitely go check that out, check that out if it's your first time. But do stay with us.
[00:02:44] You might learn something. In today's, uh, today's episode, so I'm lucky enough to be here with Scott Barner and Chase Pendleton, two of our closed consultants. Um, these guys are pros. They're super experienced, and you'll quickly learn that they are full of charisma and insights, and they are [00:03:00] the people that you, you guys are the kind of people that.
[00:03:02] That we want doing these interviews,
[00:03:04] Chase Pendleton: Man, that's a, that's a, it's a high bar. You're sitting
[00:03:06] Nate Bagley: there. We'll, we'll try not to disappoint. My goal is to inflate your ego just enough that you feel confident in, in this show.
[00:03:11] Scott Varner: So I'm still stuck on the fact that you said people are supposed to learn something if they stick around.
[00:03:15] So, It's the one takeaway that I need.
[00:03:17] Nate Bagley: Yeah. Yeah. There you go. So I had to have set a slightly high enough expectations, so you gotta bring your A game today guys. Um, so just I wanted, before we dive into the actual conversation with Scott and Chase, I wanna just do a little bit of a recap cap in some, and go over some announcements.
Recap of the last 3 weeks
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[00:03:30] Nate Bagley: First I wanted to talk about, um, what we've just summarize what we've talked about over the last couple of weeks in week one. We talked about how to pick a revenue problem and how wind loss analysis can be used to, to uncover and solve revenue problems inside your business. So your first week's homework assignment was to pick a specific revenue problem that you wanted to focus on solving over the next six weeks using these buyer interviews.
[00:03:51] In week two, we talked about the importance of having some structure to your interviews, and so you developed an interview. That would help you, um, jump onto these conversations with your [00:04:00] buyers and hopefully act as kind of a scaffolding or a framework to help you dig in and find answers to the questions that you have.
[00:04:06] Last week we sat down with some of our ops team and we talked about the importance of pulling relevant contacts and gave some best practices and tips and tricks of how to reach out to and book appointments with buyers and. If you've gone through those three steps, if you've picked a revenue problem, if you've built out an interview guide and kind of got some clarity around the questions you want to ask, and you've set an appointment with buyers, you are prepared to jump in and do your first buyer interview.
[00:04:31] And so I'm really excited today to Learn from two of the masters here at closed about how to conduct a really compelling and, and I guess results oriented, like how to get some results doing these buyer interviews. Yeah. Um, and
Buyers often don't know why they buy till they have an interview
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[00:04:45] Nate Bagley: one of the things that stood out to me during our prep for this, for today's lesson is, um, you guys told me that sometimes you found that buyers don't even really understand or have like a conscious knowledge of why they made the buying decision that they made until they [00:05:00] actually sit down and have a conversation with you, which is really interesting to me. Cause if they don't know, how can you know? Like how can a company know?
[00:05:06] Scott Varner: Absolutely. Sometimes you talk to somebody who is more like in procurement or they're just that type of personality they can get on and they can tell you, Here is my exact criteria.
[00:05:16] Here's how I scored you, here's how I scored you against the competitors, and this is the way the decision's made. Exactly. Right down to like how heavily things were weighted. Sometimes though, you're taking somebody through this complex cycle that happened over a period of nine months. They made a decision that they might not even fully understand until you walk them back through it.
[00:05:35] They can recognize what happened in each of those kind of key milestones, and then they have this key realization of, Oh, this, this is why we made this multimillion dollar.
[00:05:47] Chase Pendleton: Honestly one, one of my favorite questions to ask in an interview and, and I may be jumping the gun a little bit here, so I apologize, is just asking, Well, at what point during this process did X company begin to [00:06:00] lose your business?
[00:06:01] And it's so interesting cuz a lot of times what they say when they answer that question is very different from what they say When. So why did you not purchase XYZ solution? And it's almost like a light bulb moment for them when they realize, Oh, you know what? Sure, I told you it was too expensive. But man, after I saw that demo and I saw that it didn't provide, X, Y, and Z, different types of features.
[00:06:23] Like that's when I knew it wasn't gonna be the right fit for us. So even though it was officially ruled out, when they maybe got that price tag, it was actually the realization of, oh yeah, it couldn't fulfill maybe some certain fringe use case scenarios that we had that we didn't fully understand. It just like that light bulb goes off for them.
[00:06:42] Yeah. And so I think it, it's really interesting to see when they understand. Why they didn't win. And a lot of times that's very different from what they're actually telling your sales reps. And sometimes it's very different from what they're telling us in the very beginning stages of the interview.
[00:06:54] Yeah. How about what they told themselves along the way? , I actually,
[00:06:57] Scott Varner: I actually had this just yesterday [00:07:00] where I interviewed somebody. Once we got done to the very end of the interview, it, this was a loss to no decision. Like the deal had stalled out for one reason or. Um, what they had said is when they walked back through that demo experience, they could say, This is actually the clear value proposition this would provided for us.
[00:07:16] And actually, I'm on the security side of the operation, my counterpart and like the infrastructure and and networking side, they had this problem, we worked through this for months, and if we had this tool in place, We probably could have solved this problem much faster. And it was this light bulb for him where he said, Huh?
[00:07:33] Like, I actually, I'm, I'm glad that I got on this call with you, cuz now as I've thought back through this whole process and what it meant for us, um, I actually would suggest that we reach out to this counterpart in the organization and now there's this re-engagement that's in the beginning process. So little cliffhanger for next week.
[00:07:48] Maybe I'll pop back in to say if, if it went somewhere it.
Business leaders often rely on guesswork
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[00:07:51] Nate Bagley: Yeah. So the, these, your stories are perfect. Validation into why conducting these buyer interviews is so important because I think most sales [00:08:00] organizations, marketing organizations, businesses in gen, business leaders in general, they, um, I think in, in, they, they trust their intuition a lot.
[00:08:07] Yeah. They rely on guesswork. They rely on maybe anecdotal evidence as to why they're winning and losing deals. And if you're not talking to your buyers, like if they don't even. Why they're making their choices. How can you know for certainty? So there's real power in having these conversations with your buyers to really shine a light on why they're making the decisions that they're making to help them have clarity so that you can have clarity.
[00:08:31] Yeah, and that's
[00:08:31] Scott Varner: one reason, I don't know if it's, it's, you know, the whole why, but it's one really great reason.
[00:08:35] Chase Pendleton: A reason. Yeah. I just think. I
[00:08:38] Scott Varner: think as we talk about this, let's always jump back to just the definition of win loss analysis. Why do we do it? We're putting a systematic way of measuring complicated decisions, and we're trying to do it in a way that's actionable.
[00:08:51] So we're trying to take things that, that we can say, Hey, the business needs to take actions and can't take action to win. How do we prioritize the [00:09:00] many actions that we're working on? How do we validate our internal hypothe? Best way, let's tap into our buyer directly. Let's tap into many of the different buyers who can say, you know, like we can win in these pockets.
[00:09:11] If we make these product changes, we can win in these pockets. If we just do a messaging refinement. Lot of discovery to be made. Yeah.
[00:09:19] Nate Bagley: Awesome. Okay, so I wanna pull back just a little bit now that we kind of have set the stage here for, for the intention and what some of the purposes of a buyer interview.
[00:09:28] And I want to just kind of chronologically go through the experience of conducting an interview and get some of your tip, your best practices, your tips and tricks. And I think that the best place to start is, um, before the interview even starts. If I was a rookie interviewer, if I had never conducted a buyer interview before I.
[00:09:45] And I was going through this process of win loss 1 0 1 for, you know, kind of this process for the first time. It's like, okay, I've picked a revenue problem, I've built out my interview guide, I've booked an appointment that appointment's tomorrow. I'm getting ready for my call and I am like, look, gonna rely on my [00:10:00] interview guide.
[00:10:01] Like it's the bi like my interview Bible. Like I, I, Is that a good thing to do? Huh? Not so much. You know, I,
[00:10:09] Chase Pendleton: I will say at first, the interview guide is incredibly helpful and valuable. I mean, there's a whole reason why we dedicated an entire session of, of this, uh, you know, video podcast, if you will, like to the interview guide cuz it is critical.
[00:10:23] Um, . And I think as you're beginning and you're starting out, like it's really nice to have that safety net there to fall back on. But I think one of the biggest things you need to remember is like the goal of these interviews is not to get through the interview guide. The goal of these interviews is to understand why that opportunity was one or lost.
[00:10:41] And oftentimes if you just treat that interview guide like a list, First of all, you are now conducting a phone survey. Yeah. You're not conducting, uh, a win loss interview. You need to be able to be dynamic. You need to be able to riff. You need to be able to really actively listen to what they say. If I ask someone [00:11:00] and I say, So, you know, , why did you not purchase closed?
[00:11:03] And they say, Oh, it was too expensive. But the next question on my interview guide is, Well, tell me your use case. There's no flow to that conversation. Like, I need to be able to adapt and listen and then go back to that first initial thing they mentioned about price and kind of compare and contrast. And so, yeah, at the end of the day, I, I've conducted interviews where I've asked every single question on an interview guide.
[00:11:25] I've conducted interviews where I. One question that's on the interview guide. Oh, wow. Um, and honestly, some of those interviews have been really the most meaningful and have yielded like the best and most actionable insights because we were focusing on the items that were most important to the buyer and not necessarily the items that were most important to what was on my interview guide.
[00:11:47] Love it. I think it, as part of
[00:11:48] Nate Bagley: building your
[00:11:49] Scott Varner: program, One thing that we always want to do is get buy in from the organization. One way that you can do that is you've got your revenue problem. You've take that I guide, You've probably tried to elicit [00:12:00] feedback from different teams to say, Okay, product. What do you guys want to know?
[00:12:04] What do our sales teams need to know? Everyone has important questions. Um, and I've done this a lot where like sometimes you get this great interview guide where everyone says this is an essential question. I just had people like, kind of, okay, like, walk me through, like, if we do this interview, like, first off, how long will it take to get through this interview guide?
[00:12:24] And there's a pretty quick point where after 30 minutes, like your, your buyer's getting fatigued, the conversation's gonna go down. But let's assume that you have all the time in the world. Let's assume you get an answer to every single one of those questions. If you take a step back, would you really know why you won or lost this deal?
[00:12:40] If you had to answer all these question. A lot of times the answer can be no, which is, I think when you go into the interview, your first interview, just ask yourself and remind yourself like, what will it take for me to know if I won or lost this deal? And then during the interview, take a step back and say, Okay, do, do I [00:13:00] know why we lost this deal?
[00:13:02] And then after you've conducted five, 10 interviews, say, Okay. Do I know why we lost those deals? Just keep going back to that and then make sure that like that's your number one priority.
[00:13:12] Chase Pendleton: Yeah, and, and I can't stress this enough. This really is an evolution. Again, the interview guide is so helpful and in those first couple interviews you conduct.
[00:13:21] It is really beneficial to really, fully utilize it to your full capacity. I, I am not one who really ever gets nervous when I do things. I'm not nervous right now. I wasn't nervous last night. I was thinking about participating in this. I just, I'm very unphased as far as like talking with people and things like that.
[00:13:40] Uh, not to toot my own horn. That being said, the very first win loss interview I conducted, I was terrified, uh, because I was thinking about almost the magnitude of what I was doing, right? I was like, Oh my gosh, like I'm trying to figure out why this organization is winning and losing business so they can be more successful.
[00:13:56] And, and I, I kind of felt that weight and I got really [00:14:00] nervous. And some of the greatest advice I got from my colleagues was, Listen, you've got that. just rely on it. And it helped. I got through it. And then as I started conducting more interviews, became more comfortable, began, be, began to really understand exactly what Scott just said.
[00:14:15] It's like, Wait a second. Okay. Am I understanding why this deal is one or lost? Went back, listened to those and thought, Okay, I can kind of tweak this. I can change this. Oh man, they, they had this comment and I didn't follow up on that. Oh, I really should have like that. That was a missed opportunity. Right.
[00:14:30] And there really is a growth and evolution like. You, you might be a win loss interview expert after one interview. I'll be honest, I was not. Yeah. Um, there's still time for me to, to grow and to learn like, it, it's, it's never changing. Well, it did take a week
[00:14:46] Scott Varner: before we had the internal Slack message sent out that said like, kudos to Chase who's interviewing
[00:14:52] Chase Pendleton: like a pro.
[00:14:52] See? And I expected that to be like three days and it took a week, you know, so, uh, no, no. These things take time. Yeah. And I do think you did drop an
[00:14:59] Scott Varner: important nugget in what you [00:15:00] said, where you said, The skill that you needed to learn was, I didn't follow up on that question. And I think that can be, Well, there's gonna be a lot of things that I say for the duration of this, walk away with this one.
[00:15:12] And if I say something else that's more important than this, it's not, This is the most important thing. Most of your like, key insights and like your best quotes and the best things to fall back on are not gonna come from the the first answer to what you. It's gonna come from the answer to your third follow up.
[00:15:30] Like if we're gonna put this in like si Sigma term. Yeah. Maybe what you do is just, you just say, Well, like why? Well, why and well, why? That's where you're gonna get like your, your best key insight. And let me give you like an example. A lot of the deals can come down to price and a lot of deals can also come down to something that's kind of a tangible like user experience.
[00:15:50] They see user experience a lot in competitive deals where there's maybe a lot of like feature parody where we have two established players. So somebody tells me user experience and my follow [00:16:00] up is very similar most times where I say, Okay, like user experience, Like, I know this is gonna be really intangible, but can you tell me something specific about the user experience or like, what, what is it that went into that feeling?
[00:16:12] Um, an example of that. I got a user experience answer like, Well, it's just easier. And in a few probes kind of got down to, well, it's when actually like we were going to like set up and configure this product. There was this step where as an admin I could do this bulk import, I could set all these bulk settings and so after I got done with like a few rounds of interviews, or let's say like I got number 20 interviews.
[00:16:37] As I look back, I could say, Hey, out of all the deals where user experience came. About 60% of the time it was the ease of use for the admin. And so there's, there's my insight. It's not that we win because of ease of experience, it's that we win. Because in a poc, admins can configure it more easily, so they're more confident in it.
[00:16:56] And then that opened up the opportunity to then figure out, well, what about on [00:17:00] the other side of the house? If I'm not talking to an admin? Is our user experience competitive in that regard? And the answer to that was no. So it's like, Okay, cool. If we just stop with users, that's something to work on. Yeah.
[00:17:12] Imagine if we just stop with, Oh, we win because of user experience, so we focus on other things. and there's this whole side of the user experience that actually is a weakness that is
[00:17:22] Nate Bagley: exposed. It's a great example. This really is a skill. It's a skill that you hone over time and so much of what you're gonna be doing as you talk to your buyers is drilling down.
[00:17:31] Drilling down, asking why. Asking why. I'm being really just staying really curious and don't take answers that you get at face value. Mm-hmm. . So I wanna, I wanna rewind a little bit cause I think we got a little bit ahead of ourselves. We set, we sit, which is not surprising, let's be honest. Which, which gets so excited to talk about win loss.
[00:17:45] I. We set an intention, uh, kind of we're gonna follow the interview guide, but we're not gonna rely on it too, like too much. It's not a crutch for us. It's just a, a kind of a compass that points us in the right direction through the conversation, but mostly like, Be an [00:18:00] active listener,
[00:18:00] Scott Varner: but it's a Jacks sparrow compass.
[00:18:02] Yeah. You know, that it, it might, it's more guidelines might, you might, you might need to adjust it as you're
[00:18:06] Nate Bagley: on this journey. Yeah. So, um, I want to, I, I kind of want to step back just a little bit and think about the first two to three minutes of, of the interview now. Like we, we jump on our zoom call, we hit the record button, and as somebody who's never done a win loss interview before, do I just dive into questions?
[00:18:23] Do I go over some formalities? Last week, Braden talked about how you shouldn't gather like, Uh, quantitative data that you could get in a survey or other format, so don't ask like, Their age or their, you know, all a lot of that kind of more technical seven. How do you agree or disagree with, what do you guys do in your first two to three minutes of an interview?
[00:18:43] So,
[00:18:44] Chase Pendleton: I'll be honest, there are two favorite parts that I have while conducting win loss interviews. Obviously my favorite part is at the end of the interview when I'm able to say, Yes, this opportunity was one or lost because of this reason. Uh, my second favorite part, and this is like [00:19:00] a really close number two, is the first two to three minutes of an interview because this is the part.
[00:19:06] Honestly, I'm just building rapport so many times. Uh, when I listen to, uh, first time win loss interviews, they just jump right in. Guns a blaze in. So tell me, why'd you buy this product? And there's no relationship building. When we're conducting these interviews, we are actually asking sometimes very, I'm not gonna say sensitive information, but like we're asking optimism for very detailed information around competitors, around pricing.
[00:19:37] Um, sometimes even very sensitive information around, uh, internal politics within the organization's. Kinda deep here you are probing deep and so you have two to three minutes to essentially, Convince this person that, Hey, I'm not a robot, I'm a cool guy. Like I'm Chase, we're pals. Um, I, I start every interview.
[00:19:57] I'm always fascinated when we talk to people from all over the world. [00:20:00] I always ask, Hey, I'm just always curious, like, what, where are you calling from today? Um, and then I try to be like a connection with that person from that city. I'm telling you, if, if I interview somebody from Austin, Texas, we are talking about Torchy's tacos and how delicious Torch's tacos.
[00:20:14] No, Torch's
[00:20:15] Nate Bagley: are delicious. The fried avocado taco. Literally
[00:20:17] Scott Varner: now that he said Torch's, you're ready to tell
[00:20:19] Chase Pendleton: him anything and, and let the record show. We did not talk about torches before
[00:20:23] Nate Bagley: Dip. Yeah. Oh
[00:20:24] Chase Pendleton: no, and this literally happened on Wednesday. I knew a guy from Austin. I was like, Oh, you're from Austin. I am so jealous, man.
[00:20:31] Great music scene. And like Torch's tacos, dude. Unreal. We talked about TOS for two minutes. At the end of the interview, he said, Hey Chase, I'm gonna do you a favor. I'm gonna go to Torch's tonight in your honor, uh, what a chance. Uh, and, and it sounds like such a stupid and trivial thing, but I tell you, It is not in interviews where you're able to build that rapport, they will trust you and they will give you more.
[00:20:53] Rich gonna tell you my deepest and darkest secrets right now. Exactly. Like, and honestly, I'm kind of craving torches right now. I wish I never would've brought it up. But the breakfast [00:21:00] tacos too, it's, they're incredible, but it's, it's just, I cannot stress this enough. A, I think it makes it just a, a more enjoyable experience for you and yeah, for the buyer, but more importantly, like you really can build that trust in a short amount of time.
[00:21:15] Just by like finding commonality and making connection with them. If you love
[00:21:19] Nate Bagley: Torchy's talk tacos, get in the chat. Let us know.
[00:21:22] Chase Pendleton: Yeah. We're not even sponsored by torches. We should be. Can we work on that? I
[00:21:25] Nate Bagley: was just about to ask. It's been a minute. No torches. We're open. . Uh, but just a reminder, you can chat with us if we, you're watching live.
[00:21:33] You can't talk to us live in the chat. We'll answer your questions, so feel free to Yeah, this
[00:21:36] Scott Varner: is true. The irony here is we've talked about like the merits of banter to establish a connection. You guys can tell us how well we're doing right here. Yeah. . But I think
[00:21:45] Nate Bagley: Chase is like so
[00:21:45] Scott Varner: meta. Yeah. Like, and there's something like, as a kid, I was afraid of how much of my adult life would be spent talking about weather.
[00:21:52] Um, as a win loss interviewer. I kind of enjoy how much my time is being spent talking about weather and. Switzerland, uh, versus the weather in [00:22:00] Tennessee. Like if you wanna know what, what it's like around the world, you can talk to one of us win loss interviewers and, and I'm telling
[00:22:05] Chase Pendleton: you, these winter months are critical.
[00:22:07] People love to talk about how miserable and cold they are. Yeah. And they love to be heard about it. So if you can make that connect and validated and validate, you can make that connection. Yeah. And I'm telling you like it's gonna be a great interview, but I think here's what it goes back to is
[00:22:20] Scott Varner: one of the, the key things you can get from win loss and one of the key things you can get from a third party doing win.
[00:22:27] Is you can open that door to get insights about your competitors. Um, people aren't always willing to tell you if your baby is ugly, but they sure are willing to tell
[00:22:39] Nate Bagley: somebody else to gossip. Did you see so-and-so's Baby, Baby? Oh my gosh.
[00:22:43] Scott Varner: Yeah. But think about this though, is like, suppose like you're talking to a stranger.
[00:22:48] Mm-hmm. . I don't want to necessarily keep harping on babies, so like, we'll compare like win loss to like, you know, your, the dating scene. Oftentimes we, we make that comparison. We as companies are dating our [00:23:00] prospects. We hope that they choose us and we can sell that deal for life. It's kind of hard though sometimes to talk about, like if I walk up to somebody at the bar and I say that guy across the bar and I start launching all these very detailed questions, you're probably like, Okay, calm down.
[00:23:16] But if I can like build some rapport with you, we have a little connection like, Hey, let's go play billiards over there. And now I started asking like, Oh hey, like what do you think about like that, that guy wearing the Utah jazz sweater over there. That's how we really get some like key candid quotes and insights into your competitors is, it sounds so, so dumb and so simple, but if you're talking to like kind of a friend and you can almost like pull things.
[00:23:44] Out of them that they don't realize are like competitive insights when you have that connection.
[00:23:50] Nate Bagley: I love it. I was just reading a comment that came in as well, um, which we'll get to in just a minute. Thanks for that. Thanks for that example. I feel like the dating example's a really great tie in to how [00:24:00] we should oftentimes be approaching these, these interviews and these prospects.
[00:24:03] Um, we've kind of touched on this a little bit, but I want to dig a little bit, a little bit deeper. You mentioned earlier that. Sometimes you have to ask the question 2, 3, 4 times to get the best quote or to get the clearest understanding. Um, I know listening to what somebody says is important, but how important is it to pay attention to like tone of voice or inflection or, or things like that?
[00:24:25] Chase Pendleton: I, I think it's critical. Uh, it's not only important to listen to what they say, but to listen to how they say it. Because how they say something is a strong indication of just how passionate they are about that thing. Hmm. Um, I find this especially important. In interviews where you're not dealing with someone who's, uh, essentially a talker, uh, this will happen and it, it happens more often than I would like, where you start talking with someone and they're just very short.
[00:24:54] So, uh, you know, how's your day? Good. Last week, Braden said that it
[00:24:58] Nate Bagley: is a more technical buyers oftentimes [00:25:00] that are
[00:25:00] Chase Pendleton: lost talking oftentimes. And so as you're asking those questions, you may ask a question and there the answer still may be. , but their voice may change a little bit. Yeah. Uh, so, you know, what did you need a solution to to do for you?
[00:25:15] Oh, well, we needed it to work. It's like, Okay, well you still didn't give me much there, but, you know, I heard that. Oh, or the, the, the, the, the, the pitch of the voice kind of raised a little, but, and that tells me, Okay, there's actually something here. And then that's where I know, obviously I'm gonna try to be digging deep on all these things, but that's where I know, Okay, I've actually got a nugget here.
[00:25:35] If I prod enough and, and and really kinda keep poking at this, like, I'm gonna get something Cause they are passionate about this. And so honestly, how they say something is just as important if sometimes not more important than what they're actually saying. Yeah, I think we could probably actually
[00:25:50] Scott Varner: bookmark, how do I deal with somebody who is giving short answers?
[00:25:55] How do I open up somebody who maybe is a little bit closed? Um, [00:26:00] also, how do I manage somebody who's maybe a little bit too open? But an example that's kind of the counter of that, of where sometimes somebody's tone of voice, like something that they aren't passionate about or something that they kind of hide.
[00:26:12] You might also need to cue in on that as well. Like sometimes you talk to somebody who's just very nice and so if they're giving feedback, and this may be especially we get into, um, feedback about like sales process, like sales team. Sometimes you might hear them like cushion some feedback and if you can like gently open them.
[00:26:32] You'll find out that there was a failing in that side of the house. Yeah.
[00:26:35] Nate Bagley: Our, our sales guy was, was pretty responsive.
[00:26:38] Scott Varner: Well, a recent example that I got is, you know, somebody that said like, Oh yeah, actually I really enjoyed working with them. Like maybe there was just like one thing where um, they didn't, like, they didn't get back to me like pretty quickly and you just.
[00:26:50] Kind of empathize with them and, and totally understand. Like we're not trying to like call out any failing from anybody, but like, Oh yeah. I mean, sometimes that just kind of happens. Like [00:27:00] when you say they didn't follow up with you, like timely enough, like, can you tell me more about that? And it led to this thing of, Oh, actually it turns out that they had.
[00:27:09] Like reached out to them to ask about negotiations before their budget was finalized. They didn't get a response for several weeks and, and it kinda went through a little bit more detail on that. By the time they actually did get a response, it turned out that they had already like, locked down that lid.
[00:27:22] I, in their budget, made some changes on their side. So you're like, Oh, actually, like this nice person was gently trying to deliver the feedback that this is actually the key, failing everything else, like, doesn't really matter that much. You don't get your quote to them after the budget's finalized.
[00:27:41] Chase Pendleton: A lot of times when you're dealing with someone like that who is super overly nice, oftentimes they will actually contradict themselves in the interview if you're listening.
[00:27:49] And I find it's important to call them out on it immediately, gently call them out on it immediately. Um, and I think a great way to do it is like, you know, I, I'm [00:28:00] having a hard time understanding, like, I just want, Can you clarify this for me? Earlier you said, You know, the sales experience was great, but now you're saying that, you know, it was kind of hard to get ahold of people, like, what, what exactly happened there?
[00:28:15] And then they kind of pause and like, to Scott's point, a lot of times they'll say, Ah, you know, I just. I don't want to, I don't want to be mean. I don't wanna throw someone under the bus. But yeah, this is what happened. And so there's, there's nothing wrong with calling people out, uh, if they say something that's contradicting because again, and I'm gonna probably say this a hundred times before this thing is through, the purpose of these interviews is to understand why we are winning and losing.
[00:28:38] Sales opportunities. Yeah. And in order to do that, if someone is contradicting themselves, you're gonna have no idea why an opportunity is one or lost because you're like, Well here they said this. And then they said, Whoop, sorry, Scott here. They said that what is going on? Like call 'em out. But to order to call 'em out.
[00:28:55] You've got to be listening to what they're saying and how they're saying
[00:28:58] Nate Bagley: it. That's really interesting. Cause I think Intuit, [00:29:00] intuitively, one, would assume that to be a good interview interviewer, you have to be a good talker. But really the, the most important skill is, is listening and then asking the right question.
[00:29:10] Afterwards. Oh, absolutely. A hundred percent. I feel like you guys have both given me some really great examples of some follow up questions, and I kind of wanna dive in a little bit deeper to that. Can we get some guidance into, like, we've have, we have our top level questions in our interview guide, but can you give our listeners some examples of, of if you're watching, you can go back and watch the replay of some of the questions that these guys are just naturally asking.
[00:29:31] But do you have any specific examples of questions that we should be have in the back of our mind when there is a moment to dig a little
[00:29:36] Chase Pendleton: bit deeper? I'll tell you, I'm gonna start this off with just very simplified responses. Oh, that was interesting. Can you tell me more about that? Oh, can you please elaborate a little more on, if I'm asking someone to elaborate on something, I want to be very specific about the thing I want them to elaborate on.
[00:29:55] Oh, you ha you mentioned pricing here. Can you elaborate a little bit more on the pricing model for me? [00:30:00] Um, how did that. This evaluation, it's sometimes these questions are not complicated or difficult, it's just Tell me more about that specific thing. Yeah, I mean,
[00:30:12] Scott Varner: to make it even easier sometimes all I need to do is just take the last thing that they said and just repeat it back to them.
[00:30:19] But pick your pitch, go a little bit higher like this.
[00:30:24] Chase Pendleton: Cone. It's super important on, on both ends. And,
[00:30:28] Scott Varner: and even along with that is, is also a tip of don't take for granted that somebody may use a word that you think you understand. Um, and you may just need to like just hone in on that and say, Hey, like you, you've actually been talking about, um, You've been talking about like single pane of glass a lot.
[00:30:46] Like that's something that happens like pretty commonly, like, um, can you tell me like specifically like in your contexts, like how, how did you define that? Like what, what did you need in order to say you had a single pane of glass and then they might actually [00:31:00] tell you some things that you maybe would've taken for granted or you would've maybe taken for an extra assumption, or that also gives you the opportunity to, when they say single, You find out about, like these, what they would've considered, you know, different pains that exist they were trying to unite.
[00:31:15] So now you can ask about like those different areas as well. Um, which may open you up for expansion opportunities in the future now that you know more
[00:31:23] Chase Pendleton: about their environment. Totally. I, I have worked out sometimes with some of my, with, uh, some of my clients buzzwords, uh, that when we hear that buzzword dig deeper Mm.
[00:31:32] Uh, you know, we, we didn't think the solution could. Oh, okay. Interesting. Tell me more about that. Yeah. When you say scale, what do you mean by that? Oh, this, you know, the solution which wasn't enterprise ready. What is enterprise ready to you? Like how do you define that? Uh, Or what would've made
[00:31:47] Nate Bagley: it enterprise
[00:31:47] Chase Pendleton: ready?
[00:31:48] Exactly like. Just because, and again, what you as an organization, how you define enterprise ready may be very different to how that buyer defined enterprise ready. And so you need to [00:32:00] really understand their definition to ensure that your solution is aligning with the needs that they have.
[00:32:05] Scott Varner: Another benefit that that gives is if you're echoing back to somebody, the specific words they're using, and also just like taking care to say, like you said this word earlier.
[00:32:15] If you, if, if somebody sees that you're listening to them, if they really see that like they're being cared about, they're not just like giving a transactional answer or moving on. That's one of the best ways to open up somebody, um, help them feel valued, help them share more. I'm gonna like thread the needle to that own bookmark eye drop before.
[00:32:34] That's a good way to open up somebody who maybe is a little bit more resistant is just show like, Hey, every word that you've said actually matters to me thus far. I'm really excited that I get this time to understand what you were thinking and, and how you process this.
[00:32:50] Chase Pendleton: Honestly, I love what you just said there, Scott, like this isn't transactional.
[00:32:53] Uh, and it goes to the comment you made earlier as well about, you know, listening and, and asking. I I think that is really why listening is [00:33:00] so critical and following up on these questions is so important because again, we have an interview guide. Interview guide is great. Yeah, it's incredibly helpful.
[00:33:07] Honestly, we could pay any high schooler to read that interview guide and ask these questions. Right. You could have hire a call center
[00:33:14] Nate Bagley: to take
[00:33:14] Chase Pendleton: care of them. No, exactly. Yeah. Like anyone who knows how to read technically can conduct a win loss interview. Right. It takes active listening and following up to conduct a meaningful win loss interview.
[00:33:26] That's,
[00:33:27] Nate Bagley: that's. Important. I think, um, because we, we've talked in the past about experiences that people have had when they've gone out and done win loss interviews and, you know, they do five or 10 interviews and they come back and look at the data and they're like, I still don't know why I won or lost.
[00:33:41] Like, I still like. These interviews felt good in the moment, but now that I'm looking at the data, I don't see any trends. I feel like I kinda lost my way in the interviews. And this might happen to some people, the first couple interviews that they do, cuz it is a skill that you learn. Yeah. Um, but in order, in order to really get those insights, I think you need to practice.
[00:33:59] I think you really need [00:34:00] to hone in on that skill.
[00:34:01] Chase Pendleton: And, and, and again, I said I was gonna say it a hundred times, so I'm gonna say it again. The purpose of these interviews is to understand why we win and lose those opportunities. Yeah. We'll admit, I have conducted interviews where I was like, Oh my gosh, that interview was awesome.
[00:34:16] Like we were vibing, we talked about torches. We both had the same menu. Likes I, I know that they had a great experience with the sales team and oh man, I know they really loved this part of the, of the product. And I know that, you know, they didn't maybe necessarily love this feature, but like it wasn't a huge deal.
[00:34:34] And I'm like so pumped about it. And then I look over the interview and I. I have no idea why this was one or lost . Oh no. Uh, because again, it's not even just about, I'm not gonna sound like I'm contradicting myself here, but it's like these conversations are very important, but you can never lose sight of the end goal, which is to understand why the deal was one or lost.
[00:34:55] Like you just primary. Always gotta have them on the back of your mind. Cause if you don't, you may find yourself having a [00:35:00] very meaningful conversation. And honestly, there probably gonna be some valuable insights you can take from that, but you're not gonna know. Why, and, and these, you just, if there's one thing I cannot stress enough, stress enough, always in the back of your mind have that thought, Why was this opportunity one or lost?
[00:35:17] Yeah. And always be asking yourself that question as you're conducting the interview. And I think there's also a couple things you can
[00:35:22] Scott Varner: do in this setting just to help yourself if you feel like you've lost the plot for a second. One is just like fe the ignorance of being a, the researcher and, and just kind of admit like, Okay, yeah.
[00:35:35] As I'm like kind of listening and understanding, like, help, help me. Like understand, like for a second, check your understanding and say like, so far, based on what you've said, I'm getting the sense that this was really important to you. Um, and these other things were also important, but maybe secondary, like, is that fair to say?
[00:35:53] And just let them kind of confirm that and say, Yeah, like sometimes you may find also that I've, I've spent a lot of time talking about [00:36:00] a product feature, and if I just say, Okay. Would you say that it, like we've talked about that a lot, is that the reason why you didn't choose Company X? They might say, Well, actually that was part of it, but, and now they'll help direct you to the area where you should focus a little bit more.
[00:36:16] Um, and it's okay also to say like, Okay, let, let's take a step back and let's help me understand, make sure that I'm with.
[00:36:25] Nate Bagley: That's a great, that's great advice. I think these are really good examples of like, follow up questions to help you dig deeper and really understand what, what a buyer's thinking. Now, just based off of your examples and your stories that you've already told in, in this conversation, I'm noticing that another key, uh, I don't know, quality that you need to have to perform a really great interview is, is you have to be good at expressing empathy.
[00:36:48] Mm-hmm. . That's what it seems to me. Do you feel like that plays a pretty big role? Oh, absolutely. Totally. Yeah. Can you talk to me more about that? What great use of that question. That was good. Yeah. That was really
[00:36:59] Chase Pendleton: good. I [00:37:00] do that right? Practice what we preach. Yeah. Well I fall back on,
[00:37:04] Scott Varner: If you just listen to people, you don't need to wonder what you're gonna ask for that next question.
[00:37:10] Um, if you just listen to people and show them that their words matter to you, they will say more to.
[00:37:19] Chase Pendleton: Totally. I, uh, it, it, it's interesting as a, as a third party, third party, I do like to try to play as much of a neutral line as possible. And so the way that I have found to kind of get over that while still maybe expressing some empathy is particularly to maybe very difficult things that are being said.
[00:37:39] Mm-hmm. , um, is just, and I think Scott mentioned this early, just kind of repeating what they said. Uh, so if I'm doing an interview and they're like, Oh my gosh, uh, I, I'll be honest, I once conducted an interview where, uh, they, they found that the, the sales team, uh, in particular was just being very sexist.
[00:37:55] Um, they were only addressing the men in the room. When a woman would [00:38:00] ask a question, they wouldn't even really look or respond. And just by saying, really, So, so you're saying that you didn't feel heard or recognized at all? And just opened up. Oh my gosh. That's exactly how I felt. Mm. And, and, and really then started to express more and give really great, detailed insights into exactly what happened in those encounters, which is exactly what we're looking for.
[00:38:25] Yeah. Like, I don't want to hear just. Yeah. You know, the experience was poor. I wanna know specific details into what made that experience poor. And by expressing that empathy and recognizing and understanding what they're saying and letting them know that you do recognize and understand that, I think it's just an avenue for them to open up more.
[00:38:45] Totally. Builds more trust. No, it goes back to the rapport you, you established in those first two minutes. Yeah. The two minutes is not the only time the interview, you have to build rapport. Um, it's my favorite part to build rapport because I can talk about pretty much whatever I want, but the entire interview is an [00:39:00] opportunity to continue to build rapport because you never know what insight you might get.
[00:39:05] With that next question. Um, and in order to get that, you may need just a little bit more trust, you know, from the buyer. I
[00:39:11] Nate Bagley: know from my perspective. Sorry, Scott. I just wanna add one key takeaway on top of that, like, it does build trust. And I know in my experience when somebody repeats my words back to me, it also helps me clarify my thoughts.
[00:39:22] I'm amazed at how often I get my experience. When it's re kind of recited back to me. So maybe I'll be talking to my wife and I'll say, Hey, this is what happened. And then she'll repeat it back to me and I'll be like, Oh, actually that's not how I felt, or that's not exactly what my experience was. And it gives me an opportunity to clarify.
[00:39:39] And like the initial point that we made in, in this conversation is sometimes people don't know why they make the decisions. Yeah, exactly. And so if you're able to. Kind of reflect back to them what they're saying. It also gives them an opportunity to clarify, um, and to really get fully understand their thoughts and their perspective and their experience as well.
[00:39:57] Exactly. I this recruits it myself all the time. So yeah, [00:40:00]
[00:40:00] Scott Varner: giving me the opportunity to say, Oh, is, is that what it sounded like? I said? Um, but correct me if, maybe I'm, I'm wrong here, Chase, but something else I was thinking about is counterintuitively. As the third party, you can also express empathy for your client.
[00:40:14] Um, then another example of this, this woman feels like she wasn't heard and the entire deal was lost. Because of that, we do oftentimes uncover feedback where somebody says there was a failing of a sales rep or there was a failing of, of somebody else. And in order to like get it, you know, an accurate side of the story, I think my clients appreciate when I have empathy for them and I say, Oh, um, Did, did you like raise that concern to them at any point?
[00:40:43] Or did, did you become aware of that? Did, did they get a chance to maybe like, try to address that and, and this actually comes up a lot when we do churn interviews, recognize that these things aren't happening in a vacuum, that your client was probably taking steps to try to [00:41:00] save that account. So now it's a good opportunity to say, let them say like from, from their.
[00:41:05] What did they see as the efforts? How did they feel about the response? And now you're kind of being able to tell that complete story. Instead of just like this single side of it.
[00:41:15] Nate Bagley: Yeah, that's a great point. So, okay, we've, we've kind of gone through a lot of this process here. We started off with an intention, you know, the intention here is to figure out why they bought, not necessarily to follow religiously, the, the buyer's guide.
[00:41:27] Uh, we talked about building trust, we talked about asking open ended and, uh, really awesome follow up questions. We talked about expressing empathy, and I feel like after you've gone through about 30 minutes of conversation, How, how would you know, following these tips, how would you wrap it up? How, how do you kind of close the door on this interview and, um, and end it in a, in a professional way, but also in a way that ensures that you got what you needed?
[00:41:52] Chase Pendleton: Scott, I feel like nobody does this better than you, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna pass this over to you first. Oh,
[00:41:57] Scott Varner: I mean, all, all along the way [00:42:00] as I'm listening, I'm also trying to take note and I have my own little system of saying, If I think this impacted the decision, I'm gonna make sure that I mark that. So by the end of the interview, I can always make sure that with, you know, five minutes, three minutes to go, I can always say, Okay, based on my understanding, I think the reason why you chose this company was primarily this, this, this.
[00:42:26] Is that accurate? And that's great up for them to say, Yes, you nailed it, but then maybe also add in some more. And then once you have those factors on the table, you can say, Okay, like here's the three factors that mattered. Then you say, Okay, out of those, which of those had the most influence on your decision?
[00:42:45] Try to get them to like, Wait that. So now I can say, Alright, here's my three takeaways. But of those, this is the most important or of that, these two are deal breakers.
[00:42:56] Chase Pendleton: And, and after doing that, I also love to ask if then, [00:43:00] uh, kind of questions. So, okay. You, we've established that, uh, you know, you mentioned the price was a factor, you know, it was more, was the other solution, but you also mentioned that you needed, you know, certain functionality that you didn't see.
[00:43:16] So, If they had that functionality, would you have moved forward with the purchase? Oh, well, no, because remember the price was too expensive. Oh, okay. Great. Well, let's say hypothetically, all things, even price is the same. You have those features, it's now up against these two solutions. Do you think that would've changed the outcome?
[00:43:38] And sometimes they're. Actually, yeah, I think it would've, Well then why? Oh, well because as I was working with them again, like that, that company culture that they had like that just really vibed or, or gelled with us. So it's like, okay, cool. So I do now know, like I have two, two critical things here. Like a, we have some product, you know, functionality that was missing.
[00:43:57] We also have a cost issue. I've also had where it's like, [00:44:00] okay, well all things even. Would you have, you know, moved forward with the purchase? Right. Actually, no, I don't think I would have. Hmm. Oh, well why is that now we have a third contender in the mix as to a another factor and like that's a thing you never would've gotten.
[00:44:14] Unless you just kind of continue to probe and really, again, repeat back to them what they're saying. Yeah. And then like I said, I find those kind of if then statements to be really, really helpful and valuable scenario. That's, yeah, that's
[00:44:25] Scott Varner: a great takeaway. As a fan of Lake Street Dive, I love to play hypotheticals, but I think like caution, like this is win loss
[00:44:31] Nate Bagley: 1 0 1.
[00:44:33] That's a deep reference. I like that. .
[00:44:36] Scott Varner: You got Scott, Brian on your podcast. We're getting
[00:44:37] Nate Bagley: deep reference. That was good.
[00:44:40] Scott Varner: Let's go back to that, that thing that Chase said he is gonna say a hundred times. I'll say it for him, like, start with in your interview, like skill development. I just wanna understand why I won and lost this deal.
[00:44:50] That's checkers when you wanna start playing chess. I love that hypotheticals game. Uh, especially in the context of price, where they say [00:45:00] this alternative was this percent lower. Now say like, well, hypothetically if they were the same or. Now start opening up the doors to say like, did they need to have been equal in cost?
[00:45:10] And now you start playing those variables. Um, I think the other chess skill too is make sure you always know not just why you lost, but who you lost to and recognize that there might be more than one option that you lost to were you the second place and you lost at the very end? Or, Were you taken out after the initial, like, written response to an RFP and there were five contenders that went on.
[00:45:36] So now you have to like, understand not just whole different story, why you lost, but now know your, your place and your
[00:45:41] Chase Pendleton: ranking and all this. And, and, and if you didn't make that short list again, when were you ruled out mm-hmm. . Um, going back to that question I mentioned earlier, at what point in this evaluation did you feel like this solution wasn't gonna work for you?
[00:45:54] Yeah. And, and really understanding that timeline of events. Y Cause [00:46:00] so many times people think, oh yeah, no, it was between us and And this vendor. Neck and neck. Yeah. And we're neck and neck and come to, come to find out like it was actually between you and eight other vendors and like you weren't even in the mix.
[00:46:12] Wow. Yeah. Six of them were
[00:46:13] Scott Varner: preferred. Nate, you threw out the scenario, like you might do 10 interviews and look at your insights and say, I'm not sure why I went or. That may not be any fault of interview skills. It may not be any fault of your tagging system or how you're measuring it. It may also just be a component of, I talked to a lot of different people that had different use cases or they were at different points in the the buying cycle.
[00:46:39] Um, So you may need to just get more interviews. So now you can do those groupings to say, when we were shortlisted, this was why. When we weren't shortlisted, this was why and when we were against this competitor, it's actually pretty clear why we lost and that you might be able to get, you know, More specific reasons depending on the [00:47:00] scenarios.
[00:47:00] Nate Bagley: Love it. Well guys, we are bumping up into our time limit here. We've gone for 45 minutes. I, I know you could probably talk for another two hours between the three of us. We could keep this thing going, um, but we gotta keep it at a reasonable, a reasonable time. And so I just wanna thank you one for all the insights that you've shared.
[00:47:17] I feel like, uh, these. Principles that we've hit on are really gonna be helpful to our win loss 1 0 1 attendees, the people who are gonna, who are maybe venturing into this space for the very first time. Um, what I want to do really quick is, uh, one, give everybody their homework assignment and, and a quick recap.
[00:47:36] And then two, we've got some questions that have come in. So, um, first of all, your homework assignment this week, for those of you who might be tuning in for the first time, we're giving. To everybody who completes their first three homework assignments. Three free win loss interviews performed by. Our consultants performed by Scott and Chase and the rest of our consulting team.
[00:47:56] So if you enjoyed listening to these guys talk about their perspective and [00:48:00] how they approach interviews and you want them to conduct some interviews for you on the project that you're working on right now, make sure you go to win loss one oh one.com and turn in those homework assignments. Um, just earlier this week, I published the form after you've completed those homework assignments where you can go through and, and fill that out and, and turn in those assignments and redeem those three interviews.
[00:48:17] And remember, if your buyers
[00:48:18] Scott Varner: are in Austin, Ask for Chase to
[00:48:20] Nate Bagley: ask for Chase or bring up Torchy's Tacos.
[00:48:23] Chase Pendleton: Otherwise you're gonna want Scott, but Austin, that, that's my niche right there.
[00:48:26] Nate Bagley: But I don't wanna downplay how valuable that, that those three interviews are. Um, we've never done in something like that before, but we know that economic times are a little bit tough for people right now.
[00:48:37] There's a lot of you out there who really want better insights into why you're winning and why you're losing. And this is our way of trying to kind of pay it forward, show you how valuable win loss analysis can be, and hopefully give you a little bit of a jumpstart into, um, proving that value for your company and, and hopefully solving at least one of these big revenue problems.
[00:48:53] Your homework assignment for this week, this is week four. Um, your homework assignment is to conduct your first, I. Uh, [00:49:00] you should have set an appointment by now. So jump on a call and follow the principles that you learned today and see how it goes. Do that first 30 minute interview, interview, jump into the community at win loss one oh one.com.
[00:49:09] Leave the comment on lesson four, and let us know how your interview goes. Did it go well? Were you nervous? Did you freeze up? Did you run outta questions? Did you ask some really great follow up questions and get a, an amazing gold nugget? Uh, we'd love to hear about.
[00:49:23] Thanks for tuning into today's episode of the win-loss show. If you want instant access to the full wind loss, 1 0 1 course where you can get access to all six lessons right now, a bunch of bonus materials, and you can find out how to get closed to conduct three free win-loss interviews on your behalf. So you can get a better understanding of why you might've lost some of your more recent deals just head over to win-loss one oh one.com and sign up for free We'll see you next week